MUParis:

Fiky:

iam_kramer:

change the system because a new signing doesn't fit?

When barcelona the best ream in the world signed fabregas and sanches they changed their system to accommodate these players why? They are both quality with potential to be world class therefore, it only makes sense to play a system to incorporte them. You make the system based on the players you have that why we played 433 a few years ago because it was the best system to accommodate the players we had then.

And they are going to lose the Championship, as simple as that.

Firstly its not a forgone conclusion that they will loos the championship as they are likely to beat real at the nou camp, secondly you have to admit when barca are firing on all cylinders they are still the best team in the world the reason why they have fared poorly is due to lack of squad depth but their starting 11 is still out of this world. Also have any of you realised that if this barca team dint exist people would be talking about united being the best in the world over the past five years that's why i want to bridge the gap on them so badly so that we can be the best in the world again even Sir Alex admitted that they are the team to beat and he is aiming to reach their level.

Fergie Plays to the strength we have, at the moment..........If he brings in new players in the Summer, he will maybe change the system..........

Fiky:

iam_kramer:

change the system because a new signing doesn't fit?

When barcelona the best ream in the world signed fabregas and sanches they changed their system to accommodate these players why? They are both quality with potential to be world class therefore, it only makes sense to play a system to incorporte them. You make the system based on the players you have that why we played 433 a few years ago because it was the best system to accommodate the players we had then.

And they are going to lose the Championship, as simple as that.

I think you are wrong in 2 aspects. Our attackers and MF have been playing together for years and we did bag many goals, so what was wrong with their "understanding"? The only misunderstanding and confusion was at the back 4 - Smalling, Jones, De Gea in particular, while lacking leadership at the back. This misunderstanding will improve over time together with the recovery of Vidic, but this has nothing to do with 442 Vs 451. Secondly, our MF was over-run in Europe, due to lack of legs and lack of steel, which was obvious under Giggs + Park, as neither are box2box MF nor DMF. We enjoyed success in Europe when we play 451 Away until this season when Rooney plays the roaming AMF/striker, which may work if there are proper MF doing the dirty work. Find a proper MF to fill this hole and any argument on 451 Vs 4411 is non-issue.

mazhar08:

We don't even play a 4-4-2 nowadays unless we don't play Rooney. With Rooney in the lineup, we play a 4-4-1-1, and the reason we do it is because we have too many wingers, and in order to play Valencia (if we need to), he has to play in such a formation as he wouldn't be too effective hugging the touchline in a 4-3-3. This and we have many forwards, so to accomodate them, we have to go for the 2-forward formations with wide players to accommodate them.

What Sir Alex has done recently in the league hints to some way of changing up the style to go back to the dynamic way of the beginning of the season with added security in Carrick and Scholes. It seems as if Sir Alex is having the wide and forward players to be dynamic with the central midfielders being more disciplined, a sort of 4-2-3-1, which is what we have seen for the past few Premier League matches. However, with Valencia, we have a player who hugs the touchline often, and in a 4-2-3-1, that won't be the best option if you want dynamic play. However, Valencia has been cutting in more often, so he's probably trying to change the way he plays to accommodate himself into the system.

It seems as if Sir Alex is finally going back to the 3-man midfield, except he's making it more dynamic than the one that he had from 2001-2004. The Reserves have been playing with a 3-man midfield for a while, along with the Academy, so it seems as if the boss has already started to ring the changes. I think he has realised that the dynamic play does not work in a 2-man-midfield formation since it won't offer much protection if both central midfielders are dynamic and free-flowing. He's played Welbeck, Chicharito, and Rooney all together, with either Valencia or Young playing (Nani's currently injured). The team goes to a 4-2-3-1 with Scholes and Carrick sitting back. However, if we have Anderson and Cleverley together with Carrick protecting, we will see a 4-3-3. However, if we play Rooney in the free role as the false 9 (like Messi), then we will need two wide forwards who play like a striker, like Barcelona have/had with Pedro, Villa, Cuenca, and Tello. With Sanchez, they have a free-role wide forward, and the other wide forward plays like a striker. Barcelona always have 1-2 strikers, and these are their wide forwards. Pedro and Villa, or just Pedro/Villa/Fabregas if Sanchez is playing.

Based on the example I just provided, we will need one of the wide forwards to at least play like a striker, someone who can hold the front line from out wide. Welbeck and Chicharito both can do this role, but that means that 2 of our 3 good wingers have to be sacrificed. So for the other wide role, we will need to select from Young, Nani, and Valencia.

It'll take a while before we can fully implement this system, but I see what Sir Alex is going for and what his vision is.

After thinking more about what I said here, I honestly feel that Sir Alex isn't going to go with a 3-man midfield, but what he's actually doing is making this team mobile and let them try to play some sort of total football. The reason why he played Welbeck out wide the first time is because he didn't have any other option, as Valencia and Nani were injured. Then, Valencia came back, but Young was tired from the Bilbao game, so he tried Welbeck out wide again. The fact here is that Sir Alex wants his wide men to be in a free role with the forwards and interact with them. Formation doesn't matter when players have an excellent understanding of each other. What Sir Alex is trying to do is develop an understanding between these players, and he's going to stick with the 4-4-1-1 formation to allow for options out wide and through the middle, in terms of build up and play in the final third. The 4-3-3 is too central for build-up, whilst the 4-5-1 leaves the striker isolated, so I guess he's going to make sure this team has very little weakness with the free roles of the players. Basically, he's making another 1998/99 team except with greater understanding, more fluidity in play, and with more options everywhere.

How is he going to keep his defence solid? Have solid defenders, and have two central midfielders who read the game excellently (something which both Scholes and Keane could do). Sir Alex was trying for this approach with Cleverley and Anderson, but neither are still adept readers of the game, defensively, yet, and both are still maturing in that they get too cavalier at times.

Basically, formation won't matter if your players have good understanding, so only consider formation and tactics if your players still haven't reached that level of chemistry, yet.

lucidreams:

DLK:

ISSYNAZAR:

DLK:

I loved the days of Best and Law when we played a 1-4-5 system Just left Nobby on th eedge of the box and went marauding --- would never work today with all the tactical *** - but the nearest I've seen to that swashbuckling inventiveness was when Ronaldo and Rooney started to ad lib

But the 1967 Title winning side didn't give anyone any respect, Matt's team talk used ot be "Go out and enjoy yourselves - and remember, Keep Playing Football"

As much as I hate his fans - English football needs a Ronaldo - he was a throwback ot the old days - remember how he took the pi$$ out of Arsenal that time?

Glad I won't be around ot see it but I dread to think what Football will be like in another 50 years - we have enough mindless robots running around as it is - the clockwork footballer - wind him up and watch him run for 90 minutes - too much is placed on success and not enough on entertainment - everyone going around terrified of losing

I was thinking about something like this last night. Is this why British clubs are struggling in Europe...not one team has that one standout player who is simply ridiculously good. I mean I love Wayne Rooney, Antonio Valencia, Danny Welbeck and co....but none of them are in Ronaldo's league, a guy who will only look at scoring goals and taking people on. Some people dislike the 'greed'....but it's proving to be the difference between United being the best in the country and the best in the continent. In recent weeks though I have to say, take away the fancy tricks and flicks and Antonio Valencia has really been pushing the entertainment barrier by running extremely fast and embarassing left-backs.

Never had a problem with him being greedy of selfish - George was 10 times worse than Ronaldo --------- For donkeys years English football has scoffed at the "Continentals" and they way all their training is done with the ball --- sorry to harp on about the past - but Best and Law were always tying something different - stuff that was completely off the cuff -- no imagination these days - and Rooney is typical of the English player - relies too much on physical strength and fitness and not enough skill --- need the ball players to come back

You are exactly right. We have been missing that player ever since Ronaldo left. Players likeYoung and Valencia are good and work very well in the Premier League but often times will come up short in Europe. Nani looks like he has (had) the potential to be that player for us though I don't think he is a very intelligent player and goes missing far too often. It is almost frustrating watching him at time as you know he has all the ability in the world but just doesn't have the head of it. Every top big team has that player with the little extra that can make things happen in games barring us.

The talks of 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 are pretty mundane to me. If you have the right personnel the formation should not really matter. Two good central midfielders, one more adept to attacking, another more adept at defending with really quality wingers, a Rooney and one of the strikers we have should be good enough to beat all and sundry.

the name of the club is MANCHESTER UNITED (not Barca or whomeverelse).

now, many people do not know why attacking with 4-4-2 ever works. a wide man to pull out 1 or 2 players off the opposition's defensive unit (thereby making more room for strikers to do their jobs) AND help in defensive cover on each flank is balanced method of play.

however, a 4-3-3 is more attacking given that there is an extra man in attack. it can easily "collapse" into a 4-5-1 (which has proved to be effective in defending sometimes). fans love to see goals (it is what the game is about, anyways) so i wouldnt blame them for opting for a 4-3-3.

but, in all, i want everyone to recall (whilst we exercise our freedom of speech and expression + media) that the name of the team is MANCHESTER UNITED and Sir Alex is still in charge!!!

lucidreams:

DLK:

ISSYNAZAR:

DLK:

I loved the days of Best and Law when we played a 1-4-5 system Just left Nobby on th eedge of the box and went marauding --- would never work today with all the tactical *** - but the nearest I've seen to that swashbuckling inventiveness was when Ronaldo and Rooney started to ad lib

But the 1967 Title winning side didn't give anyone any respect, Matt's team talk used ot be "Go out and enjoy yourselves - and remember, Keep Playing Football"

As much as I hate his fans - English football needs a Ronaldo - he was a throwback ot the old days - remember how he took the pi$$ out of Arsenal that time?

Glad I won't be around ot see it but I dread to think what Football will be like in another 50 years - we have enough mindless robots running around as it is - the clockwork footballer - wind him up and watch him run for 90 minutes - too much is placed on success and not enough on entertainment - everyone going around terrified of losing

I was thinking about something like this last night. Is this why British clubs are struggling in Europe...not one team has that one standout player who is simply ridiculously good. I mean I love Wayne Rooney, Antonio Valencia, Danny Welbeck and co....but none of them are in Ronaldo's league, a guy who will only look at scoring goals and taking people on. Some people dislike the 'greed'....but it's proving to be the difference between United being the best in the country and the best in the continent. In recent weeks though I have to say, take away the fancy tricks and flicks and Antonio Valencia has really been pushing the entertainment barrier by running extremely fast and embarassing left-backs.

Never had a problem with him being greedy of selfish - George was 10 times worse than Ronaldo --------- For donkeys years English football has scoffed at the "Continentals" and they way all their training is done with the ball --- sorry to harp on about the past - but Best and Law were always tying something different - stuff that was completely off the cuff -- no imagination these days - and Rooney is typical of the English player - relies too much on physical strength and fitness and not enough skill --- need the ball players to come back

You are exactly right. We have been missing that player ever since Ronaldo left. Players likeYoung and Valencia are good and work very well in the Premier League but often times will come up short in Europe. Nani looks like he has (had) the potential to be that player for us though I don't think he is a very intelligent player and goes missing far too often. It is almost frustrating watching him at time as you know he has all the ability in the world but just doesn't have the head of it. Every top big team has that player with the little extra that can make things happen in games barring us.

The talks of 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 are pretty mundane to me. If you have the right personnel the formation should not really matter. Two good central midfielders, one more adept to attacking, another more adept at defending with really quality wingers, a Rooney and one of the strikers we have should be good enough to beat all and sundry.

I don't really think we need this kind of a "standout player." We never had a standout player in the 1998/99 season. We had a whole team working together, knowing what they were doing, and a team with excellent chemistry and understanding. If a football team has excellent chemistry and has players who know what they are doing and are of good quality themselves, then formations, tactics, the need of a "standout player," etc., are meaningless. Just let them go and play football. That high level of understanding has to exist, though. Once that is achieved, then formations and tactics are useless, and all that is needed is for the players to go and play football.

iam_kramer:

people are too obsessed with Barcelona. and then too obsessed with 4-3-3. the best thing about having players like young and valencia is they are always "hugging" the touchline. in a 4-3-3 they would be drawn inside and we would become too narrow.

That was my thoughts, and it was something I was considering about this 3-man-midfield approach. It isn't my favourite approach simply because we can become too narrow, and all teams need to do is choke us down, and that's it. With a formation like 4-4-1-1, we can have options from out wide and through the middle. That's why I prefer it the most.

However, when going to Europe, it is never easy playing against a 3-man midfield with a 2-man midfield since those teams are more used to it. I mean, it's simply outnumber our 2 midfielders, and our supply lines are gone. That's why I was thinking of a 3-man-midfield approach mostly for Europe.

DLK:

ISSYNAZAR:

DLK:

I loved the days of Best and Law when we played a 1-4-5 system Just left Nobby on th eedge of the box and went marauding --- would never work today with all the tactical *** - but the nearest I've seen to that swashbuckling inventiveness was when Ronaldo and Rooney started to ad lib

But the 1967 Title winning side didn't give anyone any respect, Matt's team talk used ot be "Go out and enjoy yourselves - and remember, Keep Playing Football"

As much as I hate his fans - English football needs a Ronaldo - he was a throwback ot the old days - remember how he took the pi$$ out of Arsenal that time?

Glad I won't be around ot see it but I dread to think what Football will be like in another 50 years - we have enough mindless robots running around as it is - the clockwork footballer - wind him up and watch him run for 90 minutes - too much is placed on success and not enough on entertainment - everyone going around terrified of losing

I was thinking about something like this last night. Is this why British clubs are struggling in Europe...not one team has that one standout player who is simply ridiculously good. I mean I love Wayne Rooney, Antonio Valencia, Danny Welbeck and co....but none of them are in Ronaldo's league, a guy who will only look at scoring goals and taking people on. Some people dislike the 'greed'....but it's proving to be the difference between United being the best in the country and the best in the continent. In recent weeks though I have to say, take away the fancy tricks and flicks and Antonio Valencia has really been pushing the entertainment barrier by running extremely fast and embarassing left-backs.

Never had a problem with him being greedy of selfish - George was 10 times worse than Ronaldo --------- For donkeys years English football has scoffed at the "Continentals" and they way all their training is done with the ball --- sorry to harp on about the past - but Best and Law were always tying something different - stuff that was completely off the cuff -- no imagination these days - and Rooney is typical of the English player - relies too much on physical strength and fitness and not enough skill --- need the ball players to come back

You are exactly right. We have been missing that player ever since Ronaldo left. Players likeYoung and Valencia are good and work very well in the Premier League but often times will come up short in Europe. Nani looks like he has (had) the potential to be that player for us though I don't think he is a very intelligent player and goes missing far too often. It is almost frustrating watching him at time as you know he has all the ability in the world but just doesn't have the head of it. Every top big team has that player with the little extra that can make things happen in games barring us.

The talks of 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 are pretty mundane to me. If you have the right personnel the formation should not really matter. Two good central midfielders, one more adept to attacking, another more adept at defending with really quality wingers, a Rooney and one of the strikers we have should be good enough to beat all and sundry.

DLK:

need the ball players to come back

What do you think about Dimitar then mate?

ISSYNAZAR:

DLK:

I loved the days of Best and Law when we played a 1-4-5 system Just left Nobby on th eedge of the box and went marauding --- would never work today with all the tactical *** - but the nearest I've seen to that swashbuckling inventiveness was when Ronaldo and Rooney started to ad lib

But the 1967 Title winning side didn't give anyone any respect, Matt's team talk used ot be "Go out and enjoy yourselves - and remember, Keep Playing Football"

As much as I hate his fans - English football needs a Ronaldo - he was a throwback ot the old days - remember how he took the pi$$ out of Arsenal that time?

Glad I won't be around ot see it but I dread to think what Football will be like in another 50 years - we have enough mindless robots running around as it is - the clockwork footballer - wind him up and watch him run for 90 minutes - too much is placed on success and not enough on entertainment - everyone going around terrified of losing

I was thinking about something like this last night. Is this why British clubs are struggling in Europe...not one team has that one standout player who is simply ridiculously good. I mean I love Wayne Rooney, Antonio Valencia, Danny Welbeck and co....but none of them are in Ronaldo's league, a guy who will only look at scoring goals and taking people on. Some people dislike the 'greed'....but it's proving to be the difference between United being the best in the country and the best in the continent. In recent weeks though I have to say, take away the fancy tricks and flicks and Antonio Valencia has really been pushing the entertainment barrier by running extremely fast and embarassing left-backs.

Never had a problem with him being greedy of selfish - George was 10 times worse than Ronaldo --------- For donkeys years English football has scoffed at the "Continentals" and they way all their training is done with the ball --- sorry to harp on about the past - but Best and Law were always tying something different - stuff that was completely off the cuff -- no imagination these days - and Rooney is typical of the English player - relies too much on physical strength and fitness and not enough skill --- need the ball players to come back

DLK:

I loved the days of Best and Law when we played a 1-4-5 system Just left Nobby on th eedge of the box and went marauding --- would never work today with all the tactical *** - but the nearest I've seen to that swashbuckling inventiveness was when Ronaldo and Rooney started to ad lib

But the 1967 Title winning side didn't give anyone any respect, Matt's team talk used ot be "Go out and enjoy yourselves - and remember, Keep Playing Football"

As much as I hate his fans - English football needs a Ronaldo - he was a throwback ot the old days - remember how he took the pi$$ out of Arsenal that time?

Glad I won't be around ot see it but I dread to think what Football will be like in another 50 years - we have enough mindless robots running around as it is - the clockwork footballer - wind him up and watch him run for 90 minutes - too much is placed on success and not enough on entertainment - everyone going around terrified of losing

I was thinking about something like this last night. Is this why British clubs are struggling in Europe...not one team has that one standout player who is simply ridiculously good. I mean I love Wayne Rooney, Antonio Valencia, Danny Welbeck and co....but none of them are in Ronaldo's league, a guy who will only look at scoring goals and taking people on. Some people dislike the 'greed'....but it's proving to be the difference between United being the best in the country and the best in the continent. In recent weeks though I have to say, take away the fancy tricks and flicks and Antonio Valencia has really been pushing the entertainment barrier by running extremely fast and embarassing left-backs.

I loved the days of Best and Law when we played a 1-4-5 system Just left Nobby on th eedge of the box and went marauding --- would never work today with all the tactical *** - but the nearest I've seen to that swashbuckling inventiveness was when Ronaldo and Rooney started to ad lib

But the 1967 Title winning side didn't give anyone any respect, Matt's team talk used ot be "Go out and enjoy yourselves - and remember, Keep Playing Football"

As much as I hate his fans - English football needs a Ronaldo - he was a throwback ot the old days - remember how he took the pi$$ out of Arsenal that time?

Glad I won't be around ot see it but I dread to think what Football will be like in another 50 years - we have enough mindless robots running around as it is - the clockwork footballer - wind him up and watch him run for 90 minutes - too much is placed on success and not enough on entertainment - everyone going around terrified of losing

ISSYNAZAR:

Formations are based around the players in the squad. With the quality of our wingers and forwards how can we NOT play 4-4-2? It's a truly Manchester United formation.

Again, this.

Formations are based around the players in the squad. With the quality of our wingers and forwards how can we NOT play 4-4-2? It's a truly Manchester United formation.