paul turner:

another reason england will never match the top nations is that we dont have a player that can do what pirlo iniesta xavi does and when we did we just wasted the talent of scholes

Yes. All due to the fact that English managers all get intimidated by the press. "Lampard - Gerrard", the worst midfield pairing in history!!

So yes, Scholes England career was wasted. Hopefully that was to the advantage of United.

another reason england will never match the top nations is that we dont have a player that can do what pirlo iniesta xavi does and when we did we just wasted the talent of scholes

if last season showed anything, it is an increasing number of premier league teams are starting to play with a 5 man midfield

weareno1:

i agree chelsea were a disgrace with all the billions that was spent. football would have died if england won yesterday my own worry is that fergie also is tooo rigid in his thinking that we have to play with 2 strikers and counter attacking is the only way to go. we have some technically autstanding youngstars especially dahelli i hope we dont ruin him by insisting he has to always run about because he has to play in a two man midfield and just stress heart and passion rather than allowing him to play his own game.

I think you will see a different approach this year. There was a radio show where Graham Hunter was saying that SAF has been trying to implement what Bilbao did against us at the club for a few seasons but was a bit unhappy as he hasn't been able to bring in certain players and stuff to play it. But Kagawa could be that missing player.

The 4-5-1 was effective against Blackburn. It was one of our best displays of control of a game the entire season. But Giggs doesn't have the same guile as Kagawa has so I think we might see more of that. But mixed in with the quick high intensity passing and movement we had at the start of the year before Ando and Cleverley got injured.

As for England it was just naive to go in with the 2 cm. But then that was probably the best midfield he could make considering the players out injured and the ones that didn't want to play.

Completely spot on post. It is the system more than anything that needs a huge upgrade.

Peralis:

mark.k.:

Your mistake is no paragraphs.

No, it is not his mistake - it is this rediculous forum. Every other board or forum automatically handles paragraphs - somehow at huge corporation like Manchester United, it is not possible.

I'm just a bit cynical and in bad form today. Sorry OP.

Nothing to do with England game either.

dlakadejan:

let me help you with paragraphs

weareno1:

england were terrible yesterday, but for me there are two points i would like to say are similar to the mistakes amn utd have made(just my opinion)

1 the formation:

i will say it time and time again but the traditionalists who want to see two strikers on the pitch at all costs will not fail to disagree with me. 442 against decent sides simply dosent work. some have said the reason our 442 looks weak is because we dont have a box to box midfielder. i beg to differ.

no matter how energetic you midfield pair is it is crucial im modern football that you dont get outnumbered in midfield and last night proved it. you would do well to find a midfield two with more energy than parker and gerrard but those two were still slaughtered, the simple reason is that they had too many men to mark. so many times yesterday and last season our midfielders found themselves in 2 v 1 situations.

i dont care how good you are any midfielder will struggle with that. also the role rooney was asked to play was unfair to someone of his talent. he wast asked to provide support for welbeck/carroll and also stay close to pirlo. frankly thats suicide furthermore someone such as rooney who we have to admit is not the most tactically disciplined player.

when in possession rooney was expected to pic up positions close to welbeckand out of possession was expected to stay close to pirlo. englands inability to retain possession for a reasonable amout of time when gained gave hime very little time to change from the tow roles giving the impression that pirlo always had time and space to hurt england. rooney looked like he had a poor game, which he did but i tell you he dint have any chance in that role from the start. i also remember the final last yr againt barca. rooney was asked to play a similar role and stay close to busquets. pple will say well it was barca, but i feel the formation we used was the final nail in the cofin to any chance we had.

442 is still a fine for mation against poor teams but i feel its incresingly difficult to use against decent teams, not even great teams thats why i have enourmous respect for carrick and scholes. the amount of work they get through is immense

2 standing off players:

for me this was a fature of man utds play last season.not pressing teams and allowing them space. so many time last sason we lloked like we allowed teams to play all the way to our box so we could just get the counter.

quite frankly its criminal(the everton game springs to mind) our defence looked shaky last season. to be honest the way we played made our defence look worse than it was. at one stage last season de gea had made the most saves of any keeper in the division. i dont care how you spin it, a united keeper shouldnt have that kind of statistic attached to him. the fact he was second in the golden glove speaks volumes of how good he was last season.

the same thing happened last night england just kept standing off the italians and inviting pressure.. its something that has to improve next season. we have got to press more.

I understand your concern over the formation, but the truth of it is it is successful in the premier league, at least for most part. Against most teams, not really the Citys but more the Evertons and West Broms, this formation works because in the premier league most teams do not use 5 midfielders unlike what we've been seeing in the Euros. Secondly the reason that we ropped those points against Everton was simply because of a lack of concentration, our defence on the other hand was decent throughout most of the campaign, we kept more clean sheets in the 11-12 season then in the 10-11 season.

But I think for fans like yourself, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Kagawa's arrival means that it is increasingly likely that Sir Alex will implement the 4-2-3-1 formation that will help us both press down opponents more quickly and to have control in midfield. I think this formation will be much more useful in the champions league than it will be in other competitions, so fingers crossed for next season!

i agree chelsea were a disgrace with all the billions that was spent. football would have died if england won yesterday my own worry is that fergie also is tooo rigid in his thinking that we have to play with 2 strikers and counter attacking is the only way to go. we have some technically autstanding youngstars especially dahelli i hope we dont ruin him by insisting he has to always run about because he has to play in a two man midfield and just stress heart and passion rather than allowing him to play his own game.

The way chelsea won the champions league is possibly the worst thing that has happened to football in the last decade. More and more teams will go out and park the bus. Parker saying "we can do a chelsea" but forgot he can barely last 90 mins and we have Henderson the beast as his replacement. It won't surprise me 1 bit if the primer league is much more boring to watch next season. We lost the league at etihad by playing this type of football and never when got a shot on target, Fergie didn't play defensive against barca yet he did it against city. Get ready for the nil nil's next season.

let me help you with paragraphs

weareno1:

england were terrible yesterday, but for me there are two points i would like to say are similar to the mistakes amn utd have made(just my opinion)

1 the formation:

i will say it time and time again but the traditionalists who want to see two strikers on the pitch at all costs will not fail to disagree with me. 442 against decent sides simply dosent work. some have said the reason our 442 looks weak is because we dont have a box to box midfielder. i beg to differ.

no matter how energetic you midfield pair is it is crucial im modern football that you dont get outnumbered in midfield and last night proved it. you would do well to find a midfield two with more energy than parker and gerrard but those two were still slaughtered, the simple reason is that they had too many men to mark. so many times yesterday and last season our midfielders found themselves in 2 v 1 situations.

i dont care how good you are any midfielder will struggle with that. also the role rooney was asked to play was unfair to someone of his talent. he wast asked to provide support for welbeck/carroll and also stay close to pirlo. frankly thats suicide furthermore someone such as rooney who we have to admit is not the most tactically disciplined player.

when in possession rooney was expected to pic up positions close to welbeckand out of possession was expected to stay close to pirlo. englands inability to retain possession for a reasonable amout of time when gained gave hime very little time to change from the tow roles giving the impression that pirlo always had time and space to hurt england. rooney looked like he had a poor game, which he did but i tell you he dint have any chance in that role from the start. i also remember the final last yr againt barca. rooney was asked to play a similar role and stay close to busquets. pple will say well it was barca, but i feel the formation we used was the final nail in the cofin to any chance we had.

442 is still a fine for mation against poor teams but i feel its incresingly difficult to use against decent teams, not even great teams thats why i have enourmous respect for carrick and scholes. the amount of work they get through is immense

2 standing off players:

for me this was a fature of man utds play last season.not pressing teams and allowing them space. so many time last sason we lloked like we allowed teams to play all the way to our box so we could just get the counter.

quite frankly its criminal(the everton game springs to mind) our defence looked shaky last season. to be honest the way we played made our defence look worse than it was. at one stage last season de gea had made the most saves of any keeper in the division. i dont care how you spin it, a united keeper shouldnt have that kind of statistic attached to him. the fact he was second in the golden glove speaks volumes of how good he was last season.

the same thing happened last night england just kept standing off the italians and inviting pressure.. its something that has to improve next season. we have got to press more.

mark.k.:

Your mistake is no paragraphs.

No, it is not his mistake - it is this rediculous forum. Every other board or forum automatically handles paragraphs - somehow at huge corporation like Manchester United, it is not possible.

the "less than" symbol... then p... then / ... then the "greater than" symbol

how is that done

Your mistake is no paragraphs.