steersyutd:

BizarreMind:

IP0 = Means the Glazers have realized that they done the wrong thing in the way they bought the club,maybe just maybe they have realized the more the debt burden's United,the less players signed that "Improve the squad" means less trophies,less trophies mean's less new interest from "new fans", which means less money,the less money the club makes,the less money the Glazers can line their pockets with. well that's my opinion anyway.

Also in my own opinion,it will be a good while yet 3+ years before the debt actually clears completely,the only way the debt would be gone is if someone bought the club and cleared the debt,or the Glazers some how manage to make 400+M within the next year or 2(not for getting how much interest that has to be paid as well as the debt)

Can I ask what you are basing your opinion on? It is much nicer when people add the logic to there argument so we can all see if people are using the correct information.

What i am basing my opinion on is everything i have read,and everything i have seen up to this point,the fact that we are in debt,from the Glazers buying the club in the first place.

In my own opinion unless the buyer has the money(out of their own pockets) then no one should be able to buy a club,borrowing money to buy a club should not be allowed no matter how high or low the club is in the league,granted the revenue United make(from what we have seen) keeps United's head above water,but that's it,the Money being generated is exactly to do that,keep United afloat, have we really seen any of the money United have generated go into the club? a few signings here and there that's it.

Say United are getting a profit of 110+M in a season,where does the majority of that money go? Young,Da Gea,Jones did not cost a 110M+.

What i am trying to say is thanks to the Glazers borrowing money in the first place to buy are club,they have had to increase the amount of money United makes,through Merchandise etc etc,just to keep some sort of control over the debt.. In all honesty what i think has kept United as a team performing as well as they have( last season especially) is Sir Alex,take Sir Alex out of the = and i wonder what United would of done.(i don't think they would of done as well).

At the end of the day yes we are all speculating,from what little information gets released to the public,the only one's who know the true problems that club have is the ones involved in the club,us on the outside can only try and put the pieces together through the small amount's of info they will give us. But the question will still remain is how much will they really raise from the listing on the stock market? and at what price,the fact that there are no voting rights and no dividends,its not exactly going to make people go oooo i want some of that,(but i could be wrong).

As for the ones who think the debt is not holding us back,if it's not holding United back,then why launch an IPO to pay the debt off in the first place?

As for the document that has been filed here it is.http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1549107/000104746912007026/a2210109zf-1.htm

Manc263:

redGlenmaximus:

A news report today stated that flotation announcement to the NY stock exchange made it clear to potential shareholders the state of the club's finances warning them about the club's "Indebtedness" before they lodge any bids for purchasing shares. Confirming we are in debt but no quoted figure set in stone rumour has it (one of many)around the 350 million mark..I would hazard a guess it won't be peanuts the flotation has been quoted as needed to "Pay down the debt"..oh for another Ronaldo for them to flog off eh?

The debt has been confirmed to be £423.3m as of March 2012. This is from a quote which was part of a written form given in for the IPO. Supposedly they have hidden something like £200m worth of debt, but this is only a theory, it could well have been paid off. I myself highly doubt that you could hide debt when selling shares, but this is my opinion.

The figure is actually from the clubs accounts that were posted for the the quarter. You are also correct in that they would be in serious trouble if there was any other debt that has not been declared. The theory of the PIK's being paid off and being hidden via Delaware corporate law is looking less and less likely.

BizarreMind:

IP0 = Means the Glazers have realized that they done the wrong thing in the way they bought the club,maybe just maybe they have realized the more the debt burden's United,the less players signed that "Improve the squad" means less trophies,less trophies mean's less new interest from "new fans", which means less money,the less money the club makes,the less money the Glazers can line their pockets with. well that's my opinion anyway.

Also in my own opinion,it will be a good while yet 3+ years before the debt actually clears completely,the only way the debt would be gone is if someone bought the club and cleared the debt,or the Glazers some how manage to make 400+M within the next year or 2(not for getting how much interest that has to be paid as well as the debt)

Can I ask what you are basing your opinion on? It is much nicer when people add the logic to there argument so we can all see if people are using the correct information.

redGlenmaximus:

A news report today stated that flotation announcement to the NY stock exchange made it clear to potential shareholders the state of the club's finances warning them about the club's "Indebtedness" before they lodge any bids for purchasing shares. Confirming we are in debt but no quoted figure set in stone rumour has it (one of many)around the 350 million mark..I would hazard a guess it won't be peanuts the flotation has been quoted as needed to "Pay down the debt"..oh for another Ronaldo for them to flog off eh?

The debt has been confirmed to be £423.3m as of March 2012. This is from a quote which was part of a written form given in for the IPO. Supposedly they have hidden something like £200m worth of debt, but this is only a theory, it could well have been paid off. I myself highly doubt that you could hide debt when selling shares, but this is my opinion.

steersyutd:

The gross debt currently stands at 423.3 million as of the last quarter accounts with a cash balance of 25.6 million. I will let you do the maths on that simple one. Bear in mind the new accounts due shortly, so this could change.

The initial (important to remember initial) IPO listing will be for 100 million dollars (64 million pounds) which will go straight to paying off part of the debt. The trail of thought is one of two.

A) They are trying to find the current valuation of the club from this initial listing, From this they can negotiate better sponsorship deals ect etc.

B) The initial listing is to gauge interest of sales for the shares, from this they could issue more shares obviously getting more money in to either pay all the debt off (most likely) or pay some of the debt and pocket the rest.

Intelligent points I completely agree. Glazers are testing the waters with a contained IPO so an embarrassment/miss evaluation of customer interest like the Facebook IPO doesn't happen to united.

steersyutd:

The gross debt currently stands at 423.3 million as of the last quarter accounts with a cash balance of 25.6 million. I will let you do the maths on that simple one. Bear in mind the new accounts due shortly, so this could change.

The initial (important to remember initial) IPO listing will be for 100 million dollars (64 million pounds) which will go straight to paying off part of the debt. The trail of thought is one of two.

A) They are trying to find the current valuation of the club from this initial listing, From this they can negotiate better sponsorship deals ect etc.

B) The initial listing is to gauge interest of sales for the shares, from this they could issue more shares obviously getting more money in to either pay all the debt off (most likely) or pay some of the debt and pocket the rest.

Completely agree with the two trails of thought. Glazers could be testing the waters so an embarrassment/miss evaluation of interest like the Facebook IPO incident doesnt occur to United.

IP0 = Means the Glazers have realized that they done the wrong thing in the way they bought the club,maybe just maybe they have realized the more the debt burden's United,the less players signed that "Improve the squad" means less trophies,less trophies mean's less new interest from "new fans", which means less money,the less money the club makes,the less money the Glazers can line their pockets with. well that's my opinion anyway.

Also in my own opinion,it will be a good while yet 3+ years before the debt actually clears completely,the only way the debt would be gone is if someone bought the club and cleared the debt,or the Glazers some how manage to make 400+M within the next year or 2(not for getting how much interest that has to be paid as well as the debt)

never die:

So basically this guy is humble enough to admit that he lacks expertise on a topic but wishes to learn and poses a legitimate question as a means to achieve this. What greets him is not helpful information but something which borders on ridicule, I mean whats the deal with that?

I really don't think that is the case in all fairness, what Steersy is trying to say is that if you give yourself time to take in what is being discussed in the main financial threads, read them start to finish you will get as good a grasp as is possible. Some posts will be more technical in their wording than others as everyone has their own style here, I myself tend to try to cut through the more difficult terminology and post something easier to understand to all readers, new and initiated. I also try to give simple analogies to explain the theory and also give what I feel is the mood/intention/possible direction of the current or new situation.

Steersy is also correct that you don't need a degree in economics to breakdown and make educated judgements on what the situation is or what new developments may mean. The reason that these threads may appear to contain a lot of speculation is that it is, 'it is' not because we haven't got a clue what we are talking about but because firstly, as even the stockbroker you are looking for will tell you, financial markets are based on speculation, if everyone really knew what would happen then you wouldn't get market crashes and global recessions.

Secondly, although we all know where to access the official figures as Steersy said, the exact facts and figures, reasons, implications etc are not known and are therefore open to speculation, this is because the Glazers have structured the club in such a way to allow them an element of secrecy, as you will see in the financial threads due to this element of secrecy there is often a difference of opinion even between us guys that do look into all this stuff.

Therefore the best response here is that the official information IS in these threads for the OP and anyone else to see, however IF there is hidden debts and dealings elsewhere then they are not known by anyone outside of the Glazer circle, so with all due respect to the OP if it's an absolute 100% guaranteed truthful total debt figure he's after, he doesn't need to find a stockbroker, he needs to find Joel Glazer.

spot on mate!

The gross debt currently stands at 423.3 million as of the last quarter accounts with a cash balance of 25.6 million. I will let you do the maths on that simple one. Bear in mind the new accounts due shortly, so this could change.

The initial (important to remember initial) IPO listing will be for 100 million dollars (64 million pounds) which will go straight to paying off part of the debt. The trail of thought is one of two.

A) They are trying to find the current valuation of the club from this initial listing, From this they can negotiate better sponsorship deals ect etc.

B) The initial listing is to gauge interest of sales for the shares, from this they could issue more shares obviously getting more money in to either pay all the debt off (most likely) or pay some of the debt and pocket the rest.

redGlenmaximus:

A news report today stated that flotation announcement to the NY stock exchange made it clear to potential shareholders the state of the club's finances warning them about the club's "Indebtedness" before they lodge any bids for purchasing shares. Confirming we are in debt but no quoted figure set in stone rumour has it (one of many)around the 350 million mark..I would hazard a guess it won't be peanuts the flotation has been quoted as needed to "Pay down the debt"..oh for another Ronaldo for them to flog off eh?

OMG, this is not the case at all. Yet more media rubbish to get people to buy them ***.

A news report today stated that flotation announcement to the NY stock exchange made it clear to potential shareholders the state of the club's finances warning them about the club's "Indebtedness" before they lodge any bids for purchasing shares. Confirming we are in debt but no quoted figure set in stone rumour has it (one of many)around the 350 million mark..I would hazard a guess it won't be peanuts the flotation has been quoted as needed to "Pay down the debt"..oh for another Ronaldo for them to flog off eh?

So basically this guy is humble enough to admit that he lacks expertise on a topic but wishes to learn and poses a legitimate question as a means to achieve this. What greets him is not helpful information but something which borders on ridicule, I mean whats the deal with that?

daza13:

steersyutd:

sir moncada:

Yeah, I took a look at it and is 99% speculation.... no facts

We have a debt, but yet no one knows how much the debt is. People throw out numbers but nothing in specific, no facts.

IPO again, all we know is that manutd is listed... why the glazer did that and how will affect the finances of the club? again, more speculations....

How good or bad are the clubs finances? no one knows... just speculations

I just asking for someone with academic knowledge to explain in a easy way this situation, not just fans giving their opinions not knowing what they are talking about.

Again read the thread, look for posts by Mancunian Matt and Lee Travis. It tells you about the actual debt, How the IPO will possibly effect us. etc etc

bud I'm not questioning your knowledge or Matt's and lee but do they know work with the stock exchange or something? Please don't take this the wrong way it just it's easy to find out the figures.

Not sure I understand your question. Nobody needs to be a stock broker or financial advisor to a) have access to the information b) use that information to show the facts and figures as they have been reported. I take my figures from the official accounts http://mufplc.com/., the stock listing request on securities and exchange commision (thank you matt), Uefa FFP rules and regulations http://www.uefa.com/uefa/footballfirst/protectingthegame/financialfairplay/index.html.

someone should merge them