Transfer Speculation

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

19reds89 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:43:28 GMT

misfitmike:
What I cannot get my head around is why you WOULD'NT be filled with pride watching welbeck play. The kid is a born and raised manc. Living the dream playing for his boyhood club at just 21. Banging in goals against the city mercenaries. The kid lives Manchester united and has the potential to become great. If this club gets to the point were it will not give a couple of mancs and life long reds the chance to make it every few seasons then it's not a club worth supporting. Would you prefer to support a team where the core is made up with lads who have grown up on the streets of Manchester and see them take on the world? Or 30 million dollar imports

Perfectly said IMO and something I have been unsucessful in getting across in the last month or so to some of his critics.

I love the fact that we have so much youth potential and seeing the talent our academy produces. It is a credit to see (ok a bit of jealousy) because as kids growing up we always dreamt of doing what Danny and co and fulfilling at the moment!

He's united through and through unlike any of the names being touted at the minute. We should be proud!!!!!

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

19healey19 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:40:38 GMT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAA. You for real lad? First of all, if you went to any games you would have noticed how quick Welbeck is! He holds the ball up very well, and compliments Rooney fantastically. Hernandez is one of my favourite players, but Danny has been superb this season, he should convert more chances but this will happen, he will gain more confidence the more he plays, and physically he hasnt finished growing yet. If you listen to SAF, once Danny has fully developed he is going to be an outstanding talent. Just because at the age of 21 Rooney was ready, doesnt mean Welbeck will be. Berbatov is also a great player, but he does not fit the system SAF wants to play, so he must leave. Danny is the future..as is Hernandez...as is Rooney.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

misfitmike — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:08:29 GMT

What I cannot get my head around is why you WOULD'NT be filled with pride watching welbeck play. The kid is a born and raised manc. Living the dream playing for his boyhood club at just 21. Banging in goals against the city mercenaries. The kid lives Manchester united and has the potential to become great. If this club gets to the point were it will not give a couple of mancs and life long reds the chance to make it every few seasons then it's not a club worth supporting. Would you prefer to support a team where the core is made up with lads who have grown up on the streets of Manchester and see them take on the world? Or 30 million dollar imports

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

Brittain 10 — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:15:33 GMT

mancrh:
Brittain 10:
I'm not suggesting we should use that every time, the best teams are always making alterations and adaptations to formations to make sure they are always organised. We occasionally change our formation, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but that's the way it goes. Rooney would have some freedom, there's that entire space behind him for him to operate in. The trouble is as you say managing to give so many players game time. There are very good players such as hernandez, welbeck, anderson, carrick etc on the bench. But the truth is we do need to evolve. We should be competing for the champions league and to do this we need to make big changes and take chances, we're not really going anywhere atm, I mean we're the biggest football club in the world after all.
Anyway it shouldn't be too condensed, I deliberately left a space between rooney and the cm's for the am's to utilise if need be, had I put a cam there then it would certainly have been condensed, but I'm hoping there's some space there. If you mean the bit with martinez, pogba and clev is condensed well bear in mind they're not fixed in position during the match, the likelihood is one of them could drive forward.
I've just noticed as you say it's similar to barca's formation, I know we want to continue our way of playing, but that is a good indication it'd work! And for the record inzaghi WAS wc.
A lot of teams change their formation many times during the season, but only if they're in a transition period like us. We're trying to find the best formation for this team, but players need time to adapt to every formation. Which is why when come next summer, what we'll need is plans A and B. The problem with Rooney isn't the space but the lack of any attacking threat as a result of our only attacker roaming far from the box. Which is why by playing Welbeck to his left (as a wide forward, not a winger), plus someone like Nani, would be the best as it will allow Rooney to roam with Welbeck to receive the ball upfront. If you play 451, your striker has to stay inside or around the box, no other way around it. As for possession footbal like Barca are using, won't work here. 'Inzaghi was WC' is something even the Italians don't dare thinking. No skills, weak shot player who only made it for knowing when it to be and where. Thankfully football is a lot more than that. Which is why his like (together with the donkey strikers) aren't too popular today. Only two in big teams are Higuain and Chicharito, and both aren't first choices.

You're extremely harsh about inzaghi, to still be at AC milan is quite an achievement, though his goalscoring record isn't as good as I thought. Anyway I feel that this formation has several players renowned for maintaining and making good use of possession, such as martinez, rooney, pogba, cleverley, valencia, and even the likes of scholes and carrick on the bench. If you ask me it should be excellent at keeping possession, there aren't any "donkeys" such as busquets in it either, it is full of genuinely good players. What you must also consider is that the two attacking midfielders are bound to come into the centre to aid rooney if need be, don't forget how much messi can drop off for barca, and the wide men such as iniesta, pedro, and David Villa(Playing him on the wing is nearly as stupid as those who think he's best there) come into the centre to support him. Anyway I'm signing out now to watch the bayern-real game. It's been good talking to you mancrh. :)

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

mancrh — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 17:09:13 GMT

Brittain 10:
I'm not suggesting we should use that every time, the best teams are always making alterations and adaptations to formations to make sure they are always organised. We occasionally change our formation, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but that's the way it goes. Rooney would have some freedom, there's that entire space behind him for him to operate in. The trouble is as you say managing to give so many players game time. There are very good players such as hernandez, welbeck, anderson, carrick etc on the bench. But the truth is we do need to evolve. We should be competing for the champions league and to do this we need to make big changes and take chances, we're not really going anywhere atm, I mean we're the biggest football club in the world after all.
Anyway it shouldn't be too condensed, I deliberately left a space between rooney and the cm's for the am's to utilise if need be, had I put a cam there then it would certainly have been condensed, but I'm hoping there's some space there. If you mean the bit with martinez, pogba and clev is condensed well bear in mind they're not fixed in position during the match, the likelihood is one of them could drive forward.
I've just noticed as you say it's similar to barca's formation, I know we want to continue our way of playing, but that is a good indication it'd work! And for the record inzaghi WAS wc.

A lot of teams change their formation many times during the season, but only if they're in a transition period like us. We're trying to find the best formation for this team, but players need time to adapt to every formation. Which is why when come next summer, what we'll need is plans A and B. The problem with Rooney isn't the space but the lack of any attacking threat as a result of our only attacker roaming far from the box. Which is why by playing Welbeck to his left (as a wide forward, not a winger), plus someone like Nani, would be the best as it will allow Rooney to roam with Welbeck to receive the ball upfront. If you play 451, your striker has to stay inside or around the box, no other way around it. As for possession footbal like Barca are using, won't work here. 'Inzaghi was WC' is something even the Italians don't dare thinking. No skills, weak shot player who only made it for knowing when it to be and where. Thankfully football is a lot more than that. Which is why his like (together with the donkey strikers) aren't too popular today. Only two in big teams are Higuain and Chicharito, and both aren't first choices.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

Brittain 10 — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 16:57:36 GMT

I'm not suggesting we should use that every time, the best teams are always making alterations and adaptations to formations to make sure they are always organised. We occasionally change our formation, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but that's the way it goes. Rooney would have some freedom, there's that entire space behind him for him to operate in. The trouble is as you say managing to give so many players game time. There are very good players such as hernandez, welbeck, anderson, carrick etc on the bench. But the truth is we do need to evolve. We should be competing for the champions league and to do this we need to make big changes and take chances, we're not really going anywhere atm, I mean we're the biggest football club in the world after all.

Anyway it shouldn't be too condensed, I deliberately left a space between rooney and the cm's for the am's to utilise if need be, had I put a cam there then it would certainly have been condensed, but I'm hoping there's some space there. If you mean the bit with martinez, pogba and clev is condensed well bear in mind they're not fixed in position during the match, the likelihood is one of them could drive forward.

I've just noticed as you say it's similar to barca's formation, I know we want to continue our way of playing, but that is a good indication it'd work! And for the record inzaghi WAS wc.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

mancrh — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 16:25:00 GMT

Brittain 10:
mancrh:
Brittain 10:
I've said play muniain as an am not cm, with Martinez as a dm. The trouble is I feel it'd be too congested if there was a cm too, don't you see? As for the Hernandez-welbeck matter I just feel chicha deserves more chances. Welbeck doesn't seem to rue any mistakes whereas Hernandez gets chances, often plays well and then gets dropped regardless. It must be extremely frustrating for him as I feel he's better than welbeck. It's too early to say welbeck is better than a wc striker who scores regularly. What's your opinion about the 2/3 man midfield then? One other problem is 3 Cmids would leave Rooney on his own up front, hard to tell whether that'll work again or not.
That's one bloody midfielder. The closest Muniain can get to an AM is a roaming role like Rooney does for us now. When was the last game Chicha played well in? I'm sorry did you just Call Chicha a WC player or did I misunderstand you? He has a long, LONG way to get, IF he gets anywhere near being world class (and so does Welbeck). I think we could very well be moving from a two man midfield considering the kind of players we seem to be after (Gaitan/Hazard/Muniain/Kagawa), but I have the same thought about Rooney, which is why I'd rather 433 and not 4231. Have a strikerless (like) front 3 of Rooney and two of Nani/Welbeck/Young. This would allow Rooney more freedom than being stuck upfront on his own in a 4231 or 451.
I see what you mean about rooney, but would we be able to adapt to a 3 man midfield? A 3 man midfield would be my preferred choice if I was convinced it'd work, there'd have to be enough space for them to operate fully. Perhaps we could play a team like this: De Gea, Jones (RB), Vidic(CB), Evans/smalling(CB), Evra(LB), Martinez(CDM/CM), Pogba(CM), Cleverley(CM) Valencia(RAM), Rooney(dk really, something between CAM and ST, like an SS I suppose?), Muniain(LAM). Does that sound better to you? It certainly does me so long as muniain and LAV get back enough. The midfield looks solid, bear in mind the cm's are just a template, atm I'm not certain who should go there as we have many options.
As for hernandez I think it's fair to call him WC now, though I'll admit the term is thrown around too much. I mean to score 20 goals a season in the epl you have to be special, yes even james beattie was wc once when he scored 23 in 02/03!

The term WC is indeed used too lightly now days, and you are using it exactly the same way. Might as well say Inzaghi was world class. As for the formation you used, interesting option, but I have a few problems with it: 1. We're selling Rooney short with such a fixed position up front, don't want to see as an only striker. 2. Seems to condensed for my liking, you're infact using 5 midfielders and not 3, which isn't far from what Barca used a few times next season but isn't the way we play. We rely too much on quick attacks to use it to perfection. 4. Nani and Young won't fit in this team at all as they are attackers, not strikers nor are they attacking midfielders. 5. Since you seem so in favour of Chicha, he won't be getting any play time if we use one striker as he can't hold the ball, neither can he go past defenders which would leave him a bit useless.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

Tekkerz — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 15:44:58 GMT

Yeah im more lenient towards Hernandez but realistically welbeck should be third choice (berbatovs attitude in terms of work is bad despite his skill and technical aspects). Even statistics show hernandez still the better player this season despite being injured, welbeck is probably portrayed as an example of our youth so thats prob why hes played on more regular basis imo. but like said either way its a win win situation for us because both players look promising for future

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

mancrh — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:57:30 GMT

19reds89:
mancrh:
Brittain 10:
I've said play muniain as an am not cm, with Martinez as a dm. The trouble is I feel it'd be too congested if there was a cm too, don't you see? As for the Hernandez-welbeck matter I just feel chicha deserves more chances. Welbeck doesn't seem to rue any mistakes whereas Hernandez gets chances, often plays well and then gets dropped regardless. It must be extremely frustrating for him as I feel he's better than welbeck. It's too early to say welbeck is better than a wc striker who scores regularly. What's your opinion about the 2/3 man midfield then? One other problem is 3 Cmids would leave Rooney on his own up front, hard to tell whether that'll work again or not.
That's one bloody midfielder. The closest Muniain can get to an AM is a roaming role like Rooney does for us now. When was the last game Chicha played well in? I'm sorry did you just Call Chicha a WC player or did I misunderstand you? He has a long, LONG way to get, IF he gets anywhere near being world class (and so does Welbeck). I think we could very well be moving from a two man midfield considering the kind of players we seem to be after (Gaitan/Hazard/Muniain/Kagawa), but I have the same thought about Rooney, which is why I'd rather 433 and not 4231. Have a strikerless (like) front 3 of Rooney and two of Nani/Welbeck/Young. This would allow Rooney more freedom than being stuck upfront on his own in a 4231 or 451.
I feel the comment should have read world class finisher rather than player which he most certainly is and Welbeck isn't unfortunately.

Neither of them is a world class finisher. A goal every 4+ shots and shots on target being less than half your total shots doesn't make you a world class finisher. Higuain, for example, is as experienced as Chicha and both are poachers with no technical ability, scores every 3 shots and has 2/3 of hisshots on target.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

Brittain 10 — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:19:37 GMT

mancrh:
Brittain 10:
I've said play muniain as an am not cm, with Martinez as a dm. The trouble is I feel it'd be too congested if there was a cm too, don't you see? As for the Hernandez-welbeck matter I just feel chicha deserves more chances. Welbeck doesn't seem to rue any mistakes whereas Hernandez gets chances, often plays well and then gets dropped regardless. It must be extremely frustrating for him as I feel he's better than welbeck. It's too early to say welbeck is better than a wc striker who scores regularly. What's your opinion about the 2/3 man midfield then? One other problem is 3 Cmids would leave Rooney on his own up front, hard to tell whether that'll work again or not.
That's one bloody midfielder. The closest Muniain can get to an AM is a roaming role like Rooney does for us now. When was the last game Chicha played well in? I'm sorry did you just Call Chicha a WC player or did I misunderstand you? He has a long, LONG way to get, IF he gets anywhere near being world class (and so does Welbeck). I think we could very well be moving from a two man midfield considering the kind of players we seem to be after (Gaitan/Hazard/Muniain/Kagawa), but I have the same thought about Rooney, which is why I'd rather 433 and not 4231. Have a strikerless (like) front 3 of Rooney and two of Nani/Welbeck/Young. This would allow Rooney more freedom than being stuck upfront on his own in a 4231 or 451.

I see what you mean about rooney, but would we be able to adapt to a 3 man midfield? A 3 man midfield would be my preferred choice if I was convinced it'd work, there'd have to be enough space for them to operate fully. Perhaps we could play a team like this: De Gea, Jones (RB), Vidic(CB), Evans/smalling(CB), Evra(LB), Martinez(CDM/CM), Pogba(CM), Cleverley(CM) Valencia(RAM), Rooney(dk really, something between CAM and ST, like an SS I suppose?), Muniain(LAM). Does that sound better to you? It certainly does me so long as muniain and LAV get back enough. The midfield looks solid, bear in mind the cm's are just a template, atm I'm not certain who should go there as we have many options.

As for hernandez I think it's fair to call him WC now, though I'll admit the term is thrown around too much. I mean to score 20 goals a season in the epl you have to be special, yes even james beattie was wc once when he scored 23 in 02/03!

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

19reds89 — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:19:25 GMT

mancrh:
Brittain 10:
I've said play muniain as an am not cm, with Martinez as a dm. The trouble is I feel it'd be too congested if there was a cm too, don't you see? As for the Hernandez-welbeck matter I just feel chicha deserves more chances. Welbeck doesn't seem to rue any mistakes whereas Hernandez gets chances, often plays well and then gets dropped regardless. It must be extremely frustrating for him as I feel he's better than welbeck. It's too early to say welbeck is better than a wc striker who scores regularly. What's your opinion about the 2/3 man midfield then? One other problem is 3 Cmids would leave Rooney on his own up front, hard to tell whether that'll work again or not.
That's one bloody midfielder. The closest Muniain can get to an AM is a roaming role like Rooney does for us now. When was the last game Chicha played well in? I'm sorry did you just Call Chicha a WC player or did I misunderstand you? He has a long, LONG way to get, IF he gets anywhere near being world class (and so does Welbeck). I think we could very well be moving from a two man midfield considering the kind of players we seem to be after (Gaitan/Hazard/Muniain/Kagawa), but I have the same thought about Rooney, which is why I'd rather 433 and not 4231. Have a strikerless (like) front 3 of Rooney and two of Nani/Welbeck/Young. This would allow Rooney more freedom than being stuck upfront on his own in a 4231 or 451.

I feel the comment should have read world class finisher rather than player which he most certainly is and Welbeck isn't unfortunately.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

mancrh — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:04:51 GMT

Brittain 10:
I've said play muniain as an am not cm, with Martinez as a dm. The trouble is I feel it'd be too congested if there was a cm too, don't you see? As for the Hernandez-welbeck matter I just feel chicha deserves more chances. Welbeck doesn't seem to rue any mistakes whereas Hernandez gets chances, often plays well and then gets dropped regardless. It must be extremely frustrating for him as I feel he's better than welbeck. It's too early to say welbeck is better than a wc striker who scores regularly. What's your opinion about the 2/3 man midfield then? One other problem is 3 Cmids would leave Rooney on his own up front, hard to tell whether that'll work again or not.

That's one bloody midfielder. The closest Muniain can get to an AM is a roaming role like Rooney does for us now. When was the last game Chicha played well in? I'm sorry did you just Call Chicha a WC player or did I misunderstand you? He has a long, LONG way to get, IF he gets anywhere near being world class (and so does Welbeck). I think we could very well be moving from a two man midfield considering the kind of players we seem to be after (Gaitan/Hazard/Muniain/Kagawa), but I have the same thought about Rooney, which is why I'd rather 433 and not 4231. Have a strikerless (like) front 3 of Rooney and two of Nani/Welbeck/Young. This would allow Rooney more freedom than being stuck upfront on his own in a 4231 or 451.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

Brittain 10 — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:37:09 GMT

I've said play muniain as an am not cm, with Martinez as a dm. The trouble is I feel it'd be too congested if there was a cm too, don't you see? As for the Hernandez-welbeck matter I just feel chicha deserves more chances. Welbeck doesn't seem to rue any mistakes whereas Hernandez gets chances, often plays well and then gets dropped regardless. It must be extremely frustrating for him as I feel he's better than welbeck. It's too early to say welbeck is better than a wc striker who scores regularly. What's your opinion about the 2/3 man midfield then? One other problem is 3 Cmids would leave Rooney on his own up front, hard to tell whether that'll work again or not.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

mancrh — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:22:10 GMT

Brittain 10:
mancrh:
Haha and I'm telling the lies? He started 24 games when he was 21, without including subs. Continue to make it sound better if you want, I'll go to the no nothing lads on ESPN, where I can see the truth:)
Brittain 10:
Referring to your last comment instead of martinez and toure we could have martinez and muniain, an attacking mid and a defensive one, where both can push forward and both can track back and defend well.
Muniain can't play in a two man midfield for *** sake, it's like playing Gaitan, Hazard, Mata and Silva there! By the way, interesting how you 'overlooked' my stats and instead again posted *** about Welbeck being overhyped (while you're overhyping Chicha). Shall we try it again mate? Welbeck started more games, including most games against the top 6, yet with him we lost 4 points less than we did with Chicha (8 with Welbeck and 12 with Chicha). Go on, tell me how he's being 'mistreated' by the gaffer.
mate you have got to calm the *** down. The reality is muniain would be able to play in a 2 man midfield, whether you like it or not. With someone of Martinez's capabilities it's even more of a possibility. Both have the work ethic to track back as well as going forward. It would work imo. Anyway another thing is I'm not overhyping Hernandez I am merely stating the obvious- 1. His movement is excellent, anyone would agree with that so that's not overhyping is it. 2. He's more clinical and more prolific than welbeck, need I emphasise the (lack in) quality of welbeck's finishing? 3. He is significantly better than welbeck. An obvious conclusion to those with the gift of sight.

Oh I'll come down mate, once you get back to reality that is. No one who watched Muniain would EVER suggest that this kid is a center midfielder, and who the second one is matters *** all. Seriously what the *** is wrong with you? Hhahaha you having problems with facts, aye mate? Again, will keep on mentioning it until you get your *** head on the right direction, Welbeck started in 6 games more than Chicha, in 7 games against the top 5 as opposed to Chicha starting in one, yet with Welbeck we lost 4 points less than we did with Chicha. You know what they say about people who are running away from facts they can't handle, mate.

Re: Why is Welbeck playing?

Brittain 10 — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:17:03 GMT

mancrh:
diwan al-haji:
ManuntdfcFan:
Why is Welbeck playing?? hmmm I think its so he scores which is what he did so stop complaining
I think what their trying to say is the Chicharito is probably the best player that we have in our squad who makes runs behind the defense and his positioning & finishing is better than welbeck.. but sometimes he seems lost.. I really think hes the type of player which needs to be in the box and not outside of it moving the ball (like Teddy, RVN) just give him the ball in the box and he'll take care of it :P
Only both Sheringham and RVN didn't look lost when they had the ball for more than two seconds. The only comparison you can get close with is Owen, but the latter was a better player as his finishing was much better.

thank you diwan. Someone who has the decency to respect what I am saying and not bite my head off at the first opportunity. This is what I believe but I also feel he is better than welbeck full stop.