manoob: LEE TREVIS: manoob: lee how much more profit are we making now???? our revenue is up but how much profit we made last year and in 2001??? 2001 we paid 4-5 mill dividends. we wouldnt even pay half as 500 mill for the las 7-8 years in dividends even with revrnue going up for various reason like increased ticket prices more money coming in from tv...... good to be back havent been in the forums for few days..,:)
Hiya Manoob there is not really any need to look back for exact figures as anyone here can since Steersy has posted links to the official accounts year on year a few times now, I can tell you that final net profits in the 2001 to 2004 era were basically in the region of £11-20m after tax etc.
If you take our new revenues and say let's pretend we had no debts at all then our profits would be five times this level and as such our dividend pay-out would be substancially more.
I'm not trying to avoid your direct question and it's not that I CBA'd to get the exact figures from the accounts for you, it's that this is a hypothetical argument/discussion as it is impossible to know what board decisions on dividends and tranfers etc would have been or if the plc would have been able to get anywhere near these revenue streams. Therefore rough figures from memory I would say is adequate.
If we say that we paid as you say £4-5m dividend on £11-20m profits then we are possibly talking £30-40m at least at todays revenues/profits before debt management costs. I would say it would likely be a fair amount more than that if we didn't need to spend on players and were carrying a substantial bank balance. However like I say it's hard/impossible to say just how greedy our old major shareholders would have become if they were seeing such revenues roling in.
The point is, we have no evidence to suggest they would be any less bloodsucking than the Glazers have or will be.
the actual profit figures for last year would be on minus considering we spended mor than we earned.
we bhought back bonds that alone costed around 70 mill of united reserve money. we got out of europe and didnt win any trophy which means less money.
you said if we pretend we didnt have debt, but we cant do that since we have it and what is our actual profits than??? how much would we have to pay in dividends on that??
i understand your point but no matter how much revenue goes up the profit dosent than it wont matter.
the debt is money that goes in glazers pocket at the end since value of united goes up. its like you buy a house in chelsea, for 1 mill the value of that house goes up 20-35 % in 7 years and you turn one of the rooms in to 2 bedroom and the value goes further up. you have been renting the place in 7 years so it is paying its mortgates by that. the tenants are like us the fans paying those loans .and glazer hoping getting best value out of united.
i dont believe plc would be worse than glazers for a second. even if the loans were paid glazers wont any more money go to reinvestment in united than now.
Hi again Manoob and and hiya Pele, I've only got a Vimto but I'll do my best lol :D
I said 'if we pretend we have no debt, meaning if we are to try and think what the plc would be like now then we are assuming that we would be debt free, I didn't mean ignore that we have debts.
What I was really trying to say is that there are so many variables and unknown factors that it is impossible to make any real assessment of the true financial difference between the two (plc v Glazer ownership).
This point started off because I pointed out that the media and bloggers choose to totally ignore what costs the plc would have had in the same period when they talk of the so called 'Glazer cost' to United.
We can't say (infact it is unlikely) whether the plc could have got revenues up to the level they are now but if we assume they had done AND as a plc we were still debt free then I was making an estimate of possible dividend payouts.
You must understand there is no definate answer here because the board of the plc would decide how much to pay out to themselves and other shareholders but what we can say is that dividends were only less than £5m per year because our profits were relatively low back then.
Therefore if we take a revenue of around our current mark and pretend we are still the plc AND therefore pretend we have no debts then we could be looking at a profit figure of around £100m. So if dividends on £11-20m were £4-5m per year then by applying a similar percentage dividend pay-out then you are looking at £30-40m in didvidends.
Now this is hypothetical as I say and if we had a large cash surplus building up the board may have decided to raise the dividend percentage, they may have decided to pay themselves bonuses, we just don't know but if they were we could now have been looking at £50m going out in dividends and bonuses anyway.
Let me then introduce another aspect of cost that we would be looking at too, the amount left over would be subject to tax as we would be in the black, in profit with no debt this would be a further deduction in the region of £10-12m based on these estimated/imaginary figures.
So if we had been paying out £60m in dividends, bonuses and tax under the plc over the last few years and £30m on average for the four years prior to that (making up the 7 years of Glazer ownership) then it could be argued if the plc had gone on a similarly aggressive revenue raising campaign then the plc could have cost us around £300m over the same period that the Glazers have owned us anyway.
This amount taken from the media hyped 'Glazer cost' means that the actual cost of Glazer ownership so far would be only £200m not the £500m the media keep telling us.
Again Manoob I must repeat that this is all hypothetical, however this example must make you understand that the plc would have had it's own costs and if revenues had increased under the plc those costs would have also gone up in a way similar to this example.
If we are going to be realistic we cannot just pretend the plc would have been cost free like the media and bloogers so often do.
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